咨询师再一次看见吉姆是三天以后，星期五。这次谈话如下。
【Friday】
C.R: I brought a few magazines you can take with you if you want. (Silence of 47 seconds)
C.R: I didn’t hear from you since last time. Were you able to go to town that day?
Jim: Yeah. I went in with a kid driving the truck.
C.R: M-hm. (Voices from next office are heard in background.) (Silence of 2 minutes)
C.R: Excuse me just a minute. (Goes to stop noise.) (Silence of 2 minutes, 20 seconds)
C.R: I don’t know why, but I realize that somehow it makes me feel good that today you don’t have your hand up to your face so that I can somehow kind of see you more. I was wondering why I felt as though you were a little more here than you are sometimes and then I realized well, it’s because-I don’t feel as though you’re hiding behind your hand, or something. (Silence of 50 seconds)
C.R: And I think I sense, though I could be mistaken, I think I do sense that today, just like some other days when you come in here, it’s just as though you let yourself sink down into feelings that run very deep in you. Sometimes there’re very bad feelings like the last time and sometimes probably there’re not so bad, though they’re sort of – I think I understand that somehow when you come in here, it’s as though you do let yourself down into those feelings. And now-
Jim: I’m gonna take off.
C.R: Huh?
Jim: I’m gonna take off.
C.R: You’re going to take off? Really run away from here? Is that what you mean? Must be some-what’s the –what’s the background of that? Can you tell me? Or I guess what I mean more accurately is I know you don’t like the place but it must be that something special came up or something?
【星期五】
C.R：我带来了几本杂志，如果你愿意，你可以带走。（47秒沉默）
C.R：自从上次以来，我没有收到关于你的信息，那天你能去城里了吗？
吉姆：是的。我和一个驾驶卡车的年轻人一起去的。
C.R：嗯。（背景中听到隔壁的办公室里传来的声音）（2分钟沉默）
C.R：对不起，稍等一下。（去制止喧闹声）（2分钟20秒沉默）
C.R：我不知道为什么，但我意识到今天你没有把你的手放在脸上，这使我某种程度上看到你更多，这使我感觉较好。我不知道为什么我感觉好像你今天人更在这里, 然后——我意识到那是因为你好像不再把自己藏在你的手背后, 或者什么别的原因。（50秒沉默）
C.R：并且我想我觉察到 - 尽管我可能是错误的，我想我觉察到，就好像其它时间你来这里的时候, 你让自己沉浸于你内心深处的情绪中。有时这些是些坏情绪，就像上次一样，有时候可能没有如此糟糕，尽管有几分 - 我想我以为当你来到这里的时候，好像你确实让自己沉浸于那些情绪中。现在-
吉姆：我要走了。
C.R：嗯？
吉姆：我要走了。
C.R：你要走了？真的要离开这儿吗？你这是什么意思？一定有一些-是什么? 这样做的背景是什么？你能告诉我吗？或者我想，我的意思更准确地说是，我知道你不喜欢这个地方，但一定是有一些特殊的事情发生的，还是别的什么事？
Jim: I just want to run away and die.
C.R: M-hm, m-hm, m-hm. It isn’t even that you want to get away from here to something. You just want to leave here and go away and die in a corner, m-hm. (Silence of 30 seconds)
C.R: I guess as I let that soak in I really do sense how, how deep that feeling sounds, that you-I guess the image that comes to my mind is sort of a, a wounded animal that wants to crawl away and die. It sounds as though that’s kind of the way you feel that you just want to get away from here and, and vanish. Perish. Not exist. (Silence of 1 minute)
Jim: (almost inaudibly) all day yesterday and all morning I wished I were dead. I even prayed last night that I could die.
C.R: I think I caught all of that, that-for a couple of days now you’ve just wished you could be dead and you’ve even prayed for that-I guess that- One way this strikes me is that to live is such an awful thing to you, you just wish you could die, and not live. (Silence of 1 minute, 12 seconds)
C.R: So that you’ve been just wishing and wishing that you were not living. You wish that life would pass away from you. (Silence of 30 seconds)
Jim: I wish it more’n anything else I’ve ever wished around here.
吉姆：我只想逃走并且死去。
C.R:恩,恩,恩,你甚至不是因为某些事情而想离开,你仅仅想要离开这里,走开然后死在一个角落里，恩。（30秒沉默）
C.R：我想当我让自己处于你的位置上时，我真的感受到那是多么深的情绪，我的脑子里可以想像这种画面：有几分像, 一只想要慢慢爬开而死去的受伤的动物。听来象是这样一种感觉: 你要从这里走开，消失，死亡，不再存在。（1分钟沉默）
吉姆：(几乎听不见)昨天一整天和今天早上我都希望我死了。昨天晚上我甚至祈祷我能死掉。
C.R: 我想我理解你所说的一切,那-两天来, 你一直希望自己能死,你甚至为此而祈祷 - 我想 -我突然醒悟的一个方面是，是生活对你来说是如此可怕,你只希望你能死,而不是活.( 1分12秒沉默)
C.R: 因此你一直只是希望着希望着你不要活，你希望生命从你身上消失。（沉默30秒）
吉姆：比我所有过去在这里希望过的都要强烈的希望。
C.R: M-hm, m-hm, m-hm. I guess you’ve wished for lots of things but boy! It seems as though this wish to not live is deeper and stronger than anything you ever wished before. (Silence of 1 minute, 36 seconds)
C.R: Can’t help but wonder whether it’s still true that some things this friend said to you-are those still part of the thing that makes you feel so awful?
Jim: In general, yes.
C.R: M-hm. (Silence of 47 seconds)
C.R: The way I’m understanding that is that in a general way the fact that he felt you were no good has just set off a whole flood of feeling in you that makes you really wish, wish you weren’t alive. Is that-somewhere near it?
Jim: I ain’t no good to nobody, or I ain’t no good for nothin’, so what’s the use of living?
C.R: M-hm. You feel, “I’m not any good to another living person, so-why should I go on living?”(Silence of 21 seconds)
C.R: And I guess a part of that is that-here I’m kind of guessing and you can set me straight, I guess a part of that is that you felt, “I tried to be good for something as far as he was concerned. I really tried. And now-if I’m no good to him, if he feels I’m no good, then that proves I’m just no good to anybody.” Is that, uh-anywhere near it?
Jim: Oh, well, other people have told me that too.
C.R: Yeah, M-hm. I see. So you feel if, if you go by what others-what several others have said, then, then you are no good. No good to anybody. (Silence of 3 minutes, 40 seconds)
C.R: I don’t know whether this will help or not, but I would just like to say that-I think I can understand pretty well-what it’s like to feel that you’re just no damn good to anybody, because there was a time when-I felt that way about myself. And I know it can be really rough. (Silence of 13 minutes)
C.R: I see we’ve only got a few more minutes left. (Silence of 2 minutes, 51 seconds)
C.R:恩，恩，恩，我想你已经祈求了的很多事物。但哥们啊， 看起来好像“不要活”这个愿望比你以前曾经期望的任何东西都更深，更强。（1分36秒沉默） C.R：禁不住好奇是否那个朋友告诉你的一些事情仍是真实的-这些仍是使你感到如此可怕的事情中的一部分吗？
吉姆：大致上，是吧。
C.R:嗯。（47秒沉默）
C.R:我对此的理解是：总的来说，他认为你不好的这事让你内心情感汹涌，以致于使你真地希望，希望你不要活着。是这样吗？大致是这样吗？
吉姆：我对任何人来说都不好，百无一用。因此活着有什么用？
C.R: 恩，你感受到，“我对其他活着的人来说一是无处，因此-为什么我应该继续活下去呢？”（21秒沉默）
C.R: 我想你这样想的一部分原因是-在这里我是一种猜测，你可以直接修正，我想一部分原因是你感觉：“我努力做到他希望的那样好。我真的努力。现在-如果我对他而言不好，如果他感觉我不好，那么就证明我对任何人都不好。”是这样吗，恩-大致是这样吗？
吉姆：哦，是的，其他人也告诉过我这些。
C.R: 是的，恩，我明白。因此你感觉如果，如果你听信别人说的-其他几个人曾经说的，那么，那么你不好。对任何人都不好。（3分40秒沉默）。
C.R:我不知道这是否有帮助，但我只想说-我想我几乎能够很好地理解 “你对任何人来说都很糟糕”这种感觉，因为有一次，我也有这样的感觉，我也似乎有这样的感受。我知道这种感觉是相当可怕的。（13分钟沉默）
C.R:我想我们剩下的，已经只有不多几分钟了。（2分51秒沉默）
C.R: shall we make it next Tuesday at 11, the usual time? (Silence of 1 minute, 35 seconds)
C.R: If you gave me any answer, I really didn’t get it. Do you want to see me nest Tuesday at 11?
Jim: Don’t know.
C.R: “I just don’t know.”(Silence of 34 seconds)
C.R: right at this point you just don’t know-whether you want to say”yes” to that or not, Hmm?-I guess you feel so down and so-awful that you just don’t know whether you can-can see that far ahead. Hmm? (Silence of 1 minute, 5 seconds)
C.R: I’m going to give you an appointment at that time because I’d sure like to see you then. (Writing out appointment slip.)(Silence of 50 seconds)
C.R: And another thing I would say is that-if things continue to stay so rough for you, don’t hesitate to have them call me. And if you should decide to take off, I would very much appreciate it if you would have them call me and-so I could see you first. I wouldn’t try to dissuade you. I’d just want to see you.
Jim: I might go today. Where, I don’t know, but I don’t care.
C.R: Just feel that your mind is made up and that you’re going to leave, you’re not going to anywhere. You’re just-just going to leave, hmm? (Silence of 53 seconds)
Jim: (Muttering in discouraged tone) That’s why I want to go, because I don’t care what happens.
C.R: Huh?
Jim: That’s why I want to go, because I don’t care what happens.
C.R:我们可以在下个星期二11点约定的时间做吗？（35秒沉默1分）
C.R:是否你给我任何回答，我真的不能确定。你想在下个星期六的11点见我吗？
吉姆：不知道。
C.R: “我只是不知道”（34秒沉默）
C.R: 好的，在此时你只是不知道-是否说“是的”或“不”，恩？- 我想你感觉如此沮丧如此可怕以致你不知道是否你能-能向前看那么远。恩？（1分5秒沉默）
C.R: 我给你这个约会时间， 因为我确信那时我想见你。（写出约定卡）（50秒沉默）
C.R：我要说的另一件事情是-如果事情对你来说一直都是如此糟糕，不要有任何犹豫，打电话给我。如果你决定离开，我会非常感激如果你打电话给我， 这样我就可以先见到你。我不会试图劝阻你。我只是想见你。
吉姆：我可能今天就走，去哪里，我不知道，不过我不在乎。
C.R: 只是感觉你下定了决心并且就要离开了。你不打算去任何地方。你仅仅-仅仅打算离开，嗯？（53秒沉默）
吉姆：（气馁的声音嘀咕）这就是为什么我想走，因为我不在乎发生什么。
C.R：恩？
吉姆：这就是为什么我想走，因为我不在乎发生什么。
C.R: M-hm, m-hm. That’s why you want to go, because you really don’t care about yourself. You just don’t care what happens. And I guess I’d just like to say-I care about you. And I care what happens. (Silence of 30 seconds) (Jim bursts into tears and unintelligible sobs.)
C.R: (tenderly) somehow that just-makes all the feelings pour out. (Silence of 35 seconds)
C.R: And you just weep and weep and weep. And feel so badly. (Jim continues to sob, then blows nose and breathes in great gasps)
C.R: I do get some sense of how awful you feel inside-you just sob and sob. (Jim puts his head on desk, bursting out in great gulping, gasping sobs)
C.R: I guess all the pent-up feelings you’ve been feeling the last few days just-just come rolling out. (Silence of 32 seconds, while Jim continues to sob.)
C.R: There’s some Kleenex there, if you’d like it--M-hm. (sympathetically) you just feel kind of torn to pieces inside. (Silence of 1 minute, 56 seconds)
Jim: I wish I could die. (Sobbing)
C.R: You just wish you could die, don’t you? M-hm. You just feel so awful, you wish you could perish. (Therapist laid his hand gently on Jim’s arm during this period. Jim showed no definite response. However, the storm subsides somewhat. Very heavy breathing.) (Silence of 1 minute, 10 seconds)
C.R: You just feel so awful and so torn apart inside that, that it just makes you wish could pass out. (Silence of 3 minutes, 29 seconds)
C.R：恩，恩。这就是为什么你想走，因为你真的不在意你自己。你就是不在乎发生什么。我想我只想说-我在意你。我在意发生什么事情。（30秒沉默）（吉姆突然大哭并呜咽起来。）
C.R：（温和地）反正那把所有的情感都冲出来了。（35秒沉默）
C.R：你哭啊哭，感受如此糟糕。（吉姆继续抽泣，然后大大吁吁地吹鼻子喘气。）
C.R：我确实感受到你内心感觉多么糟糕-你哭啊哭。（吉姆把他的头埋在桌子上，一边费力地吞咽着，一边喘着大气抽泣着。）
C.R：我想几天来你感受到的所有压抑的情绪刚才-刚才宣泄了出来。（32秒沉默，期间吉姆一直抽泣。）
C.R：那里有些面巾纸，如果你愿意的话-恩。（怜悯地）你只是感受到一种内心被撕碎的感觉。（1分56秒沉默）
吉姆：我希望我能死掉。（抽泣）
C.R：你只是希望你能死掉，是吗？恩，你只是感到如此糟糕，你希望你能死掉。（在此期间，咨询师把他的手轻轻地放在吉姆的胳膊上。吉姆没有明确的回应，然而，激动的情绪稍微有些衰退，很粗的呼吸。）（1分10秒沉默）
C.R：你只是感觉如此糟糕，使你心碎以致使你只希望能死。（3分29秒沉默）
C.R: I guess life is so tough, isn’t it? You just feel you could weep and sob your heart away and wish you could die. (Heavy breathing continues.) (Silence of 6 minutes, 14 seconds)
C.R: I don’t want to rush you, and I’ll stay as long as you really need me, but I do have another appointment, that I’m really late for.
Jim: Yeah. (Silence of 17 minutes)
C.R: Certainly been through something, haven’t you? (Silence of 1 minute, 18 seconds)
C.R: May I see you Tuesday?
Jim: (Inaudible response)
C.R: Hmm?
Jim: Don’t know. (Almost unintelligible)
C.R: “I just don’t know.” M-hm. You know all the things I said before. I mean very much. I want to see you Tuesday, and I want to see you before then if you want to see me. So, if you need me, don’t hesitate to call me. (Silence of 1 minute)
C.R: It’s really rough, isn’t it? (Silence of 24 seconds)
Jim: Yes.
C.R: Sure is. (Jim slowly gets up to go.) (Silence of 29 seconds)
C.R: Want to take that too? (Jim takes appointment slip.) (Silence of 20 seconds)
C.R: There’s a washroom right down the hall where you can wash your face. (Jim opens door; noise and voices are heard from corridor.) (Silence of 18 seconds) (Jim turns back into the room.)
Jim: You don’t have a cigarette, do you? (Therapist finds one.)
C.R: There’s just one. I looked in the package but-I don’t know. I haven’t any idea how old it is, but it looks sort of old.
Jim: I’ll see you. (Hardly audible)
C.R: OK. I’ll be looking for you Tuesday, Jim.
C.R：我想生活是如此艰难，是吗？你只是感觉你的心一直在哭泣，抽泣，而且你希望你能死掉。（粗重的呼吸在继续）（6分14秒沉默）
C.R：我不愿意催促你。我想一直陪着你，只要你需要。 不过我确实有另外一个约会，我真的迟到了。
吉姆：嗯。（17分钟沉默）
C.R：你无疑已经穿越了某些东西，是吗？（1分18秒沉默）
C.R：我可以在星期二见你吗？
吉姆：（听不见的反应）
C.R：恩？
吉姆：不知道。（几乎无法了解）
C.R：“我只是不知道。”恩。你知道我先前说的所有事情。我的意思着着实实是这样的。我想在星期二见你。在那之前如果你想见我的话，我也愿意见你。所以，如果你需要我，不要犹豫给我打电话。（1分钟沉默）
C.R：真是很难受，是吗？（24秒沉默）
吉姆：是的。
C.R：是的。（吉姆慢慢地站起来要走。）（29秒沉默）
C.R：想把那个也带着吗？（吉姆拿走约定卡。）（20秒沉默）
C.R：下面大厅的右面有一个盥洗室，你可以洗把脸。（吉姆打开门，听见了从走廊里传过来的噪声和说话声）（18秒沉默）（吉姆返回进入房间。）
吉姆：你没带香烟，是吗？（咨询师找到了一支。）
C.R：正好有一支，我在包里找了，而-我并不知道。只是，我不知道，我不知道它有多久了，不过看上去有几分久了。
吉姆：我会见你。（几乎听不见）
C.R：好的。星期二我会一直期待着你，吉姆。
补充说明:
案主28岁, 诊断为精神分裂症.他高中教育程度. 曾住院2次.第一次在他25岁的时候.
该次(第3次)住院19个月后, 罗杰斯开始见他. 前前后后罗杰斯见了他两年半.录在以上的这两次治疗是在治疗进行到11月后.
治疗后他出院,独立正常生活,有同性和异性朋友,不再接触医院。
上海心潮心理咨询中心（心灵花园/顾歌工作室）上海心理咨询师 选编
